May 22, 2008

RyanSutter.Net’s 700th Post!

This morning I tried riding my bike to the bus and taking it with me for the first time using the bike rack on the front of the bus. Two things to note: 1) I’m a moron for not doing this sooner and 2) I have no idea what the damn combination is to my bike lock. I’m sure I’ll figure it out, but as it is… grrr.

Last night I was in a long conversation via IM with a Witness girl from another state who found my blog over the Internet. She was DF’d a while ago and then started researching the Watchtower Society and started uncovering all their dirty laundry (membership in the UN, Creation book dishonesty, 587v607, the works). She really wants to present her findings to her parents in an attempt to open their eyes to the dishonesty and hypocrisy within the Watchtower Society because they’re both really good people and she believes they would want to be aware if they were being mislead.

I’ve been trying to help her as much as possible over the last few weeks in large part because (holy smokes, the entire bus suddenly smells like pot… methinks somebody has been up to something this morning and just got on the bus… whew…. I mean it smells like a freakin’ field of pot on a sunny day), sorry to digress there… where was I, oh yeah, I’ve been trying to help because I feel like maybe if I we can develop some sort of effective strategy with them, there is a chance with my family.

She tried asking her mother to study with her but her mom said that any studying should be done with the elders from the judicial committee. They haven’t spoken to their daughter in over a year and now they are at least agreeing to talk to her in a week. She has hopes that she’ll be able to present her case when they talk and I wish her the best. My hopes aren’t high though. The amount of mental insulation around the thought processes of a Jehovah’s Witness is truly astonishing.

Let’s look at the box they are in, eh? They have been told that the entire world lies in the power of Satan the Devil. Everything. Business, governments, schools, all secular institutions. They distrust anything that is not explicitly endorsed by the Watchtower Society. If the Society says that all historians who disagree with something they claim are just trying to discredit the Bible and further their evolutionary/atheist agenda, then everything those historians say is immediately unusable in a conversation with a Witness because the Witness will assume that if it appears there is evidence in support of the alternate view, Satan is responsible for it, and otherwise it’s just God-dishonoring worldly garbage. This means that when attempting reasoning with a Witness your best bets are the Bible and the Watchtower Society publications, their two trusted sources of information.

The big problem there, of course, is that the insulated against problems found in those places as well. The Bible they use, the New World Translation, has been meticulously revised over the last 50+ years to erase most of the controversial material, obvious contradictions and the like. If you are able to illustrate a contradiction or problem using another Bible translation, they may be able to just blame the “worldly” translators (don’t forget, other Christian denominations are also under Satan’s control). If you are able to illustrate it using only the NWT, they’ll just say you are twisting things which only proves that you’re an apostate. You see then, they are in a perfect cocoon, one they can only escape through their own efforts. External information is irrelevant, and internal contradictions and conflicts are resolved in a number of ways. If it’s a matter of a teaching formerly espoused by the Society that is crazy (such as the idea that aluminum cookware is dangerous and evil) they will simply say, “We don’t believe that anymore. I know the Society has made mistakes in the past, but they’ve corrected them. That is part of why I trust them. They are progressively gaining brighter light on the Truth.” If the problem is a current issue they have two options, accuse you of twisting the Society’s words or, if it’s so obvious that they can’t even do that, they can say, “I know they aren’t perfect, maybe they will get new light on this in the future. It doesn’t invalidate all the things they are right about.”

There is no way for reason to stick it’s head in the door with a Witness. This is why they are not a normal religion and are instead a cult. Only cults make a point of training their members to reject all but approved sources of information. Typically cults do this by physically isolating their members, but the Witnesses can’t do that because they’re an evangelizing cult and their members need to be out in the world in general. So, they psychologically isolate their members by constructing a little mental box that constrains what information they are allowed to pay attention to and gives them what seems like plausible reasons to deny information that contradicts what they believe. I honestly do not know which technique is more effective. A cultist like those polygamists in Texas lives a life of a kind of forced isolation, cut off from the world by their community so extremely that they most likely don’t even know what’s out there. The Witnesses have to encounter “the world” every day, they live in it, work in it, see things on the news, and they have to develop strong internal controls to avoid being affected by it. On the plus side, they get to live fuller lives then physically isolated cultists, on the negative side they have far more convoluted mental processes. It’s much easier to maintain the illusion of us and them, black and white, when you never see the grey areas. Witnesses certainly do and it leads to a lot of internal conflict.

I really hope against hope that there is a way to talk reason to a truly believing Witness but in the meantime, since it seems there is not, I just have to keep looking for a gap in the insulation.

Viewing 14 Comments

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    Of course, you know my take on things. I cannot convince myself that it matters if JW's stay JW's forever. There's all these ways of describing them (living a lie, a cult, etc.) that don't mean anything to me. I just can't see (in the ultimate sense of things) that anything I do with my time is any better than what they're doing with their time. I also think variety is key (7 million JW's, 13 million Mormons, 13 million Jews...) and I like to steer clear of efforts that try to make everyone the same. And although making everyone the same is a JW goal, we all know it has no chance of coming anywhere near reality and is nothing more than another variation that some people happen to be trying out.

    That being said, I am nonetheless interested in this mythical magic weapon that undoes the JW. It's a very interesting thing.

    I'd be lying if I said I didn't have a short list of people I'd like to deconvert, but that's not my main interest. Really I'm interested in how to deconvert myself. Don't get me wrong, I'm as far from JW beliefs and attitudes as I can be (or at least I like to think so). What I'm interested in knowing is how to deconvert my past self. What would have been the magic key to unlocking me back then? My path away from the group was convoluted. I'd like to distill the process. I can't say exactly how, but I think it would help me understand myself better and possibly (maybe I'm reaching) give me some direction forward.

    I was just reading some Dawkins and he has some ideas for an idea as to why humans are suckers for religion and the belief in God. It seems to me that if this is truly an evolved trait, it looks to have a fairly high degree of specialization in man. And if I understand evolution, it should therefore be highly variate. This leads me to wonder if some people are more inclined to belief than others.

    So when I was a JW I sometimes thought, "What are the odds that I was born into the one true religion?" Now I can wonder, "What are the odds that I'd find my way out?" Perhaps the deck was stacked!

    Of course I am also interested in this "ultimate argument against being a JW" for the more traditional reasons too. It's complicated though. I mean, when I was a Witness, I wanted to convert people. But why? Was it really as simple as me wanting to help them? On the surface I'd say so, but there's some rather tricky psychology there too. I haven't read up on the specific behavior, but I'm sure that some people will try to convince others to join them on something in order to reinforce their own perception of their position. Didn't they always say that conducting a Bible Study strengthens both student and teacher?

    So who's to say that a deconverting attempt doesn't have hints of the same? Of course this time it's much more obvious that I'm right. ;P

    Naturally the biggest reason for wanting to find the secret combination is so that you can get back the relationships that were lost to the JW's. Not only is the argument needed in order to get them out, it's also needed as part of the argument for getting them out. I wish I could have written that last sentence better, but I don't know how. What I mean to say is that, one of the biggest things that keeps JW's in is the fear of losing their relationships. In order to overcome that, you almost need to be able to show them that they too will be able to deconvert their friends and family. And what better way than by using the "ultimate argument".

    Anyway, good luck to you and good luck to your internet friend. Let us know how it goes.

    Oh, and the "gap in the insulation" is obvious - they want you back.
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    From what I've read it seems that the only way to get a witness out of the religion is through a very long and tediously slow process. The process works much much better if the person trying to get others out hasn't already left. There are women and men on the JWD forum that have husbands and wives still in the religion. I would think that would be the easiest person to get out, your own spouse, and if these people can't even do that, it really says a lot about how hard it is to get these people to see it isn't true.
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    my efforts to self-deprogram started pretty recently, and i haven't come out the closet just yet. i haven't decided on the value of openly talking things over with other jw friends. what could advertising my apostasy accomplish? if it leads anywhere except argument, i may end up pulling someone else into my painful position--alienating them from their own friends and family. how can i justify turning someone else's world upside down?

    (of course, there's the blood issue.)
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    also, i must find a better m-dash to use in your blog, ryan. testing:

    — (mdash)
    -- (two hyphens)
    — (option shift hyphen)

    let's see which of those works.
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    David, I totally know where you're coming from about "deconverting yourself". I sometimes imagine I am speaking with my past self and try to figure out what I can say to win the argument. Heh.

    And Falterer, I've been curious how things are with you. Still closeted? How's the wife handling things? You can respond privately if you want, I just wanted to let you know I've been thinkin' about you and your situation.
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    Enjoyed reading your thoughts on it. I had someone contact me through my blog and asked, "My daughter has a friend who is a JW - what can I say to bring them to Jesus?" So I thought about it, and thought about it, and basically came to the same conclusion. Basically, that the JW are so programmed to view everything with suspicion and reject anything that contradicts that there is no magic silver bullet. I was talking to one guy and he was asking what he could say to JW's that come to his door - he related how a couple came to his door and he told them, "You're in a cult" because he really wanted them to think. I just thought, they probably left even more convinced than before. In the end, I just told him to print out the UN letter and give it to the next JW that comes to his door. But even at that, I know many JW's that know about the UN and yet still remain.
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    I knew about the UN stuff when I was in it and it didn't bother me a bit. If you're aligned with everything else in the group, it's a very weak attack. As a matter of fact, most single points by themselves don't really land - you have to build up a case. And of course, the good JW will take each as separate and use the standard rationalizations to disarm each one individually. And of course, that's assuming that they don't tune you out the second you start talking.

    The extremely challenging nature of it is what makes it so interesting.

    So Ryan, what lands when you argue yourself? I know James has a weak spot for the flood story and I'm sure you do well with evolution. I've been doing pretty well with the documentary hypothesis and the obvious motivation for each of the source documents. Still, I wonder if I wouldn't have accepted it and rolled it up into the rest.
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    I think the thing that would have worked on me even when I was still in was a close up examination of the Creation book. I would have immediately been disturbed by the blatant dishonesty if I had only had it pointed out to me previously. It was really the thing that crushed my faith in the Watchtower Society, that book. Most other stuff I could have withstood somehow, I think.
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    David,

    That's the thing - with everyone it will be different. With me it was the UN that started it all and later there was other stuff after that sealed the deal, such as 607v587. With others it might be something else - maybe blood transfusions. And then, some people will up and leave without any particular reason at all.

    I was thinking more about this last night - about belief in general.

    Why do we believe what we believe? Why can we be confident in our beliefs? If I can expand this beyond the JW's - for instance, what could I say to Ryan to get him to believe in God? Conversely, what could he say to get me to accept atheism? Is it possible that we could change beliefs? Is it likely? How much do others impact our beliefs? Do they wield more influence in reinforcing our current beliefs than in changing our beliefs?
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    Anthony,

    Out of curiousity, what would you say to try to get me to believe in God? As one of the few theistic friends I have and few theistic contributors to the discussions here on this blog I invite you to feel free to expand on your beliefs and views as much as you like. :-)

    Ryan
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    I wouldn't mind hearing an argument for "strong" atheism.
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    The case for classic strong atheism is covered here better than I could do in a comment.

    My reason for not accepting the God(s) of the Bible are:

    - I've researched the history of belief in Jehovah and found him to have originated as a member of a pre-Hebrew Mesopotamian pantheon. Nobody I know would argue that the remaining members of the pantheon were real so I don't see how they can argue that this one is any more real than Zeus, Odin, or Jupiter.

    - I have researched the development of Christianity and find compelling evidence that it's origins are astrological, not historical, with only a passing relationship to Judaism. It's deeper roots go back thousands of years before the advent of the religion. I cannot find any evidence to differentiate the character of Jesus from any of the other now defunct solar dying-and-rising dieties like Osiris, Mithras, and Dionysus. So, as in the case of Jehovah, I find Jesus has his roots in pagan mythology, a mythology that even Christians would never accept as true.

    There are other conceptions of god of course that I am not addressing here. The cosmic neutral prime mover god of the philosophers and deists, for example. Or the personification of our inner spiritual state as "divine". Definitions of god such as these are matters of personal opinion where belief and non-belief are concerned because they are not testable concepts and one could argue they don't truly constitute a God to speak of in the first place. However, an actively involved personal creator god is something completely different. Tell me which one you're talking about and I'll tell you why I lack belief in him/her/it.
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    I think Anthony brings up a good point, and I don't think it was his intention to debate atheism versus theism, and his point is being lost as people try to do so. I think the only people you really listen to as far as beliefs go are the people you want to hear. The people who reconfirm what you are already thinking, and know to be true. I find, that when people have a belief in god or a specific religion, it is more of a subjective argument. Trying to convince them that god doesn't exist is like trying to convince them that blue is a better color than red, or that french fries taste better than chocolate. If you already know that red is a better color and that chocolate tastes much better, then you can't be convinced otherwise, because you know these things to be true. What I'm trying to say is, a belief in god is not about logic or reason or proving or disproving things, it is about feeling, intuition, and knowing something to be true. Not that this can't or wont change ever. Sometimes people used to like red and then they start liking blue better, or they used to love chocolate, but then get a hankering for more salty cuisine. I think that Anthony is correct in that people have more influence in reinforcing our beliefs then changing them though. Changing beliefs is a very slow tedious process for most. Even if it happens in 10 minutes time like it did for me, there were years and years leading up to the moment that created small changes in my mind until the scales where tipped so far the other way that it just took a tiny bit more information for everything to click all at once. Sometimes you can catch a person whose scales are almost tipped, and tip them, but that doesn't mean you caused them to leave their religion or lose their belief in god, it just means that they were at a point where it was bound to happen anyway. In the case of the JW's, we would all like them to leave their religion so that they will talk to us again, but, it is pretty impossible to get anyone out unless they are almost their anyway.
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    I think that the momentum from finding out that your religion is bogus can (in some cases) carry you to find out (for yourself) that The Bible, or God, or belief is bogus too. Perhaps the waves take some people farther than they might have otherwise gone. Perhaps some are still anchored to the shore. Still, I don't mind listening to why people settle out where they do - even those who are ten miles off the coast.

    You don't need to love chocolate to enjoy hearing people go on and on about it. I try to catch The Splendid Table every Saturday (we're usually in the car driving to my parents when it airs). Most of the things they talk about I've never tried. There's been a few things that I have tried (some at their suggestion) and didn't like. It doesn't stop me from enjoying listening to how passionate they can be towards food.

    For me, logical argument is interesting. There are honest, thinking, highly intelligent people out there who believe in God and I'm sure there are also slack jawed dimwits who don't. I may agree with the dimwit's conclusions, but I'd much rather hear the intelligent theists.

    Oh, and I love that you used color as an example. I went for years telling people that my favorite color was black. It took a very creative coworker to show me that it had, at some time long before, turned to red. Very eye-opening. Also interesting is that I'm more agnostic-like and I also no longer have a favorite color.
 
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